Note: For those joining this post for the first time, I greatly encourage you to read through all the comments – it’s a vibrant and helpful discussion that teases apart the post from many sides.
A discussion is beginning over at the UK Vineyard Facebook site asking about people’s experiences and perspectives on the activity in Lakeland, Florida guided by Todd Bentley.
Here is my post to the site, simple and quick. I thought it may be helpful to some; angering to others. All in all, I’m open to God being quite active in Lakeland, Florida – though I won’t bet everything I have on it all being His activity.
“With great power, comes great responsibility. If great power is coming to, and through people, there should always be regard for the source of the power, the nature of the leaders through whom it is extended to us, and the ever present (Church History 101) possibility that godly activity is blended with psychic power (see Bonhoeffer, or ancient and recurring themes in historic gnosticism – i.e. the elevation of spiritual leaders and power themes in Christian experience).
That’s not skepticism, nor is it over-analysis of a move of God – it’s good form and should be the norm for how we evaluate every experience we have corporately or personally with God and Christian activity.
As one who pastored for years one hour from Toronto, and walked through the center of that holy and hazy storm, I offer this idea.
God is most probably doing some beautiful work there in Lakeland. I’ve had significant encounters with God in the midst of the Toronto experience through the years, as well as in other settings. From the reports, the sick are healed, the dead are raised, and I hear some good, biblical ideas shared there (along with others that have, in my opinion, absolutely nothing to do with biblical Christianity – not uncommon to the whole of the Church). As one who has first hand witnessed cancer disappearing (by doctor’s verification) and blind eyes opened, I will never be quick to dismiss dramatic acts of physical transformation. I cannot, without reinterpreting far too much of my personal experience.
However, people are not then exempt from participating in the process (or the power), and therefore everything is not God’s activity – some of it is that of people. I bristle at the emphasis on “anointing” and “impartation.” This language smacks of extremes in the charismatic world, with which I am both extremely comfortable and uncomfortable at the same time. The border is often crossed in shades of gnosticism with this language – certain people have special power, and spread it around.
The New Testament focuses on “obedience.” Plain and simple. I’d rather obey, and see God respond in that moment, than wait to be empowered over and over again in order to be used by God. I just don’t see that pattern in the New Testament. In my estimation, while I admire Todd Bentley’s faith, I am put off by his style – I can’t see Jesus presenting Himself or the gospel the way I hear it presented- at least in some of the GodTV clips I’ve seen.
Then again, I’m not so impressed with myself in that regard as I lead conferences and events, so I may be projecting my own weakness on other models.
However, I will note that some aspects of what I saw were actually very beautiful – the joy in faces, the richness of some of the times of worship (the anthropologist and worship leader in me loves the chant and ecstatic quality of certain moments that are created), and the hope that is kindled afresh in folks.
I say, take the best, let it lead us not to power, or even greater power, but to love, and to the one who emptied Himself of power in order to let His weakness and humility right the world.
High spiritual drama does not equal, has never necessarily equaled, God’s activity, though He may be quite involved. I’m thrilled for what God is doing in the midst of Lakeland, but I expect Him to do the same here in my town of 5000. I also expect Christians to be more educated and thoughtful about these things – I’m getting tired of any reflective analysis of an amazing event being labeled as “unbelief” or “skepticism.” I’m glad Jesus was “skeptical” about the religious patterns of his own day.
For some, I note how “power” is attractive and seems to be at the center of their Christian story. I’ve never understood that. Maybe they want to see the Church come alive, the culture realize we’re right, maybe something else is behind the scenes.
Love is the center of the story I know and love – and am giving my life for.
So, I say, “God, heal the sick through us, raise the dead through us, and deliver the oppressed through us… but also feed the poor through us, do justice through us, show your care and humility through us, and integrate us into the heart of culture as your new humanity – as you help us not to spiral off again into a new brand of Christian subculture.”
Unedited, and a quick reply.
P.S. I also must note that the phrase “God on Demand.” over at the God.TV site where the live feeds are being broadcast sickened me. This is the side of charismania, of which I have been a part for years, that so disturbs me. “God on Demand” is called magic – not biblical faith. Let’s watch our words – no matter what God is doing.
61 Comments
Thanks Dan, helpful thoughts!
I couldnt agree more with pretty much all that you mentioned. Whilst I am challenged by my own skepticism towards some of the methods he uses and to why he seems to be the focus of a lot of the ministry rather than the one who gives the power in the first place i canot deny the stuff ive seen done through him. But as you say God can do that just as easily through us! I was praying this stuff through recently and felt that God said “Look these guys only got this because they asked me for it. You ask me” Oooooh Chalenge or what. i think people in our church have had their faith stirred up though because our corprate Worship and ministry times have felt more like everybody thinks hey this stuff is just as available to us. Maybe we lost sight of that along the way somewhere awhile back. who knows. God is God and I am not! Im excited to see what he does next and even if he did nothing more id love him just the same. Love to all yours from all mine. See ya sometime.
Thanks Dan, for the comments. I appreciate hearing from someone who has come from the charismatic tradition. My thoughts are very similar – I get tired of any questions about it being labeled as “judging.” Discernment is not unbelief. Thanks again. God’s peace.
Brilliant Dan, thanks.
I think thats a well rounded point Dan, and appreciated. I was in Lakeland and I saw God move powerfully. I’ve added a post that I put on the UK Vineyard senior pastor’s forum :
“Jason, I had those questions in my mind too. First of all I remember, “back in the day” when people would go off to Anaheim and come back feeling empowered and changed, and also that when Wimber and his team came over, a lot of power came with them, and rubbed off on (or was modeled to) the people in contact with them, because people said, “I can do that”. If you look at past revivals, moves of God etc. It seems that there is usually an epi-centre where people gather, they get together then disperse and spread it virally. You’re right that God will meet with us wherever, and He’s doing this stuff in South America, Africa and Asia every week, on a bigger and more dramatic scale, but maybe God realised that to get the western church into a paradigm shift he’d need to use TV, and the promise of a few days in Florida. We, especially in the west, aren’t always great at risky faith or the supernatural because our Greek influenced nature is inclined to be analytic and logical about everything, just look at the amount of time we spend reading books and blogs about subjects such as post-modernism, management, the latest church growth or emergent ideas. How much time, in comparison, do we spend praying for people out in the streets? Its more difficult for us to get naturally supernatural than our counterparts in the 3rd world.
I think the model is unimportant too. Todd, whilst I was there, continually talked about Jesus, had us worshiping at every opportunity an kept saying it was nothing to do with him, and that he often looked in the mirror and wondered why God would use him to front this. Also, there is a lot of drivel about Todd on the net (as there is about the Vineyard if you google it). I’d suggest downloading the Freshfire podcasts to get a better overview. Like you, some of the things that he talks about made me question and get slightly offended, but who am I to say whether he met with Jesus or can see angels, just cause I don’t. I’m sure that Donuts in worship have no scriptural basis either.
As far as I can tell, his beliefs on the “main and plain” stuff, the non-negoitables (Trinity, Jesus, resurrection etc) is sound.
I’ll say again, that everyone who testifies is followed up be a full time staff who check on them for the next few weeks. A huge chunk of th people there are leaders and it may appear to be more “hyped” than your average vineyard meeting, but to be honest when you are there there is just a lot of hunger. Although I have a very sensitive cheese-o-meter that went off a few times, it was actually really refreshing to be amongst passionate, enthusiastic, hungry christians, who weren’t worried about acting cool. It taught me a lot about letting go and being real a bit more often. Again, sometimes, “laid back” isn’t what God wants from us, when He wants to do business.
After all that, no its not perfect and no doubt we’d do it differently, also remember Todd’s 32 and been a christian 12 years. I’ve been one 20 years and continue to make mistakes and say stupid things, so we should bear that in mind when looking at whats happening on Florida, and pray for the guy. Can you imagine doing a meeting in front of 4 – 5000 people with high expectations every night for 60 days. I have enough trouble with once a month for 20.:)
The effect its had on me, is that I ate the meat and spat out the bones. It increased my faith and my passion, and got rid of my cynicism. Its also got me back into the habit of praying for people outside of the church, it gave me the faith to pray for a busker in an underpass on Saturday. There was no blinding flash and he didn’t fall over, but I felt an authority and anointing that I didn’t have before. So, who knows? Lets see what the fruit is in a few months.”
Just as a quick follow on from my previous post, the thing that interests me about this, is the theme, from what I got at the meetings, seems to be “give it away” & “take it out”. I just watched some of the healing meetings they are having in Fort Mills, SC and its then same kind of power, but the model is different, actually more contemporary vineyard rather than pentecostal, but the place is just as packed out, God is moving. It seems that God is in a season of releasing this stuff in the western church, Dan I don’t think it will be long before you are seeing powerful, life changing healing in St Stephen (if you are not already). We had an instant healing at our gathering yesterday, something I haven’t seen in a long time.
Also someone mentioned to me an interesting quote from John Wimber, “Let the bush grow before you prune it.” But, what do I know, just my opinion and observations
Graeme, thanks so much for this “insiders” (i.e. have been there) perspective. It’s very helpful for those of us geographically distant. For those diving in to this post, Graeme is a wonderful spiritual leader, artist, worship leader and friend. His words should be heard as coming from a godly man who is questing for God from a life of integrity.
I was pleased (as always) to read your take, and balanced perspective, on the activities there, Graeme. My tensions still lie with something I continue to carry out of a very intimate and active connection with the Toronto experience, and many other experiences along my charismatic/evangelical/liturgical experience of the Holy Spirit.
If we’re looking 10, 20, or 30 years out, it may be a wash. If we’re looking 100, 200 or 500 years out, I’m concerned over the model we’re presenting of the “Jesus life.”
For me, the miracles, yes. The faith of the leaders and people, yes. The hope stirred in the Church, yes. The renewal of the Church, yes.
Now, my “no.” The style and emphasis of how then the disciple is to pursue God and then to live in the world, based on close information (Toronto) and then limited information (Lakeland), often distilled after 10 or 20 years, no.
Why? The medium is the message (John Wimber used this quote often to affirm why style and presentation is so important no matter the enthusiasm with what God seems to be doing).
We continue to develop (and nurture) a charismatic figure-centric, meeting and service-centric Christianity – which has never bode well for the Church throughout church history. Heroes and the gifted, yes; those with spiritual keys, no.
Someone may be raised from the dead – but if it’s coupled with strong attributes of a Christian subculture (that continues to pump out youth pastors and worship leaders ((of which I am one)), and then weakly pumps out blockbuster film makers, articulate politicians, true culture-shapers in cities and towns, then I take issue with both the form and content.
I don’t make statements like that because I’m cranky about things I shouldn’t be – I make them from the basis of my understanding of theology, church history and how we represent the actual biblical message and manner of Jesus. I also make them out of my last 30 years of church life experience.
My question is this, then: from your experience there (though only a few services over the course of possibly a few hundred), does the style of how things are being done seem to you to be the best representation of how an inculturated Jesus would lead people to faith and miracles in the 21st century?
I’m not asking for judgement (the greek word, kritikos), but rather discernment (the greek word, kritikos).
For we who have lived much life within the church organizational as our primary model of how faith is practiced in culture, I’m not sure any of us can answer this well. Not to say we’re disconnected with culture – just that we may not be clearly seeing another model well-represented in our spheres of experience (Celtic models or other historical models of Kingdom influence).
It is my deeply held belief, having led myriad ministry times in churches, worship events and conferences, that the “way” we do it is equally as important as the “why we do it” (and evidences it), which is equally as important as the “what we do.”
Now, I’ll show all my cards. I’m losing my interest in people having profound encounters with God, only to attach them to a style and way of describing the Christian life that I believe to be unhelpful over the course of generations.
For me, it’s not worth it. On some level, it may be why I’ve always felt (at least partially) at home in the Vineyard movement. Overall, and in theory, I trust the style – the medium and the message work for me. I don’t want people to have profound spiritual encounters “at all costs.” I want them to meet with God, and then be carried along on a wave of culturally connected people, who embody the Kingdom message by living out a theology that thrusts them deeply into the heart of the world.
(Note: Even those terms are loaded – most churches are sure they’re absolutely “changing their city” – when they may be – but they also may not be – but all of our church language is laced with such dramatic terms, so I’m not sure if we could ever tease apart our actual influence in culture).
Help me. I’m seeking to maintain a childlike approach to what seems to be another fresh, vibrant move of God, and at the same time apply my own academic understandings of church history and spiritual leadership after the way of Jesus.
Having said all of that, come Lord Jesus, and have your way with us. For the mother who’s child came back to life, for the person whose crushed spine was healed, for the depressed man who shook off the dust and found fresh power to move forward, I am as grateful and celebratory as Todd Bentley, or any other friend of Jesus.
I must add just one more comment, for everyone participating in this post.
Again, the following comes from my own vantage point, and as a lover of the Holy Spirit’s activity in the world – even when it offends our minds and 21st century sensibilities.
Here’s the comment:
Phrases such as “Give it away,” and “Take it out,” were rampant in my Toronto experience. These, to me, are highly offensive and violently war against the essence of a fair reading of the gospels/Jesus activity (even within my Vineyard family).
These phrases are indicative of what I am trying to say, again, as a lover of the Holy Spirit’s activity.
The Holy Spirit is God – not an experience, a revival, a spiritual plasma to be directed (or channeled) by Christians, nor a force to be poured into the cup of enthusiasm and distributed to others.
Now, on the other hand, take “faith and hope” out, give “faith and hope” out, I can buy. Take “faith to pray and expectation that a the transcendant/immanent God will act,” and give “love and its natural outflow, justice” – those I can buy.
The distinctions are not made in these settings – the language of anointing and experience predominates – it is a feeding of postmodern magic when we do not make the distinctions.
If postmodernism is recovering anything for us, it is that language is important. Language is important. Language is important.
We must understand that many expressions of religion throughout the history of religious activity on earth (dating back as far as scholars can find) evidence powerful spiritual experiences. The experience is not the endorsement of the experience (i.e. I had it, so I know better, so deal with it). Experiences should be reflected upon, by the person and those observing, based on more objective criteria (i.e. I had an experience, and it was powerful, so I reflect on it based on the scriptures, Jesus’ way of teaching and doing the activities of the Kingdom of God, my own weaknesses and tendencies, etc.).
Most of fear we will be seen as being overly analytical in these cases, wanting to quench a beautiful work of God.
I, however, do not have that fear anymore (though I have those very close to me who I am deeply afraid of offending), because I know I love the Spirit’s activity and have been overwhelmed by amazing spiritual convergences and experiences again and again.
I am fighting for a more thoughtful approach to the activities we as the section of the 21st century Church with a strong pneumatology (theology of the Spirit) evaluate on skewed scales (our limited study and experience -which we all have – but which we can intentionally grow in).
What I love about the world of the academy is that we recognize that we learn as much from what we agree with as from that with which we disagree.
In the Church, we tend to believe that the less critical (kritikos: judgement) we are, the more like Christ we are. However, the less critical (kritikos: discernment) we are, the less we can tease apart eternal truth from temporal error.
Let your Kingdom come in our hearts and minds, Lord Jesus.
Thanks for the response Dan. I don’t know how Jesus would have done it, but there are a couple of points that might help:
I think that the western church needed it to be media led, because we in front of our TVs and computers more than our bibles. God meets us where we are.
Todd kept talking about a “nameless, faceless, generation”, its a cliche but his heart is that the whole body does this stuff and the “superstars” fade.
From what I hear that’s exactly what’s happening worldwide, there are mini-outpourings happening all over with anonynmous people leading them.
Also, you don’t get a full picture from God TV. Todd only runs the main meeting in the evening, but the morning meetings are just are powerful. They have different guys from every stream ministering at those, and again the theme is all about equipping.
They send about 600 people out into the streets and malls every day, offering prayer for whoever wants it.
They are teachable (the leadership of Freshfire and Ignited) and have accountable relationships and are happy to talk about their mistakes, which really speaks volumes to me.
And, its really nothing like Toronto, feels very different.
Let me see if I can put my views in context. I was saved into a Methodist youth group in 1987, led by Steve Barber (now a Vineyard pastor). We saw very profound and very physical manifestations regularly, without actually knowing what we were meant to do with them. We took it as normal. A few years later when Southend Vineyard was being planted (pre-Toronto), we had the same experience, again thinking it was normal. And it was far messier than Lakeland (which is actually pretty civilised when you are there). The past 9 years, in comparison to my early walk have felt very dry. There have been moments but nothing to the degree of before. I think that has been a Godly season of building character and maturity rather than His absence. What I am seeing at the moment is a return to risky, foolish faith. A month ago I felt the Lord give me the scripture 1Cor 1:27, which is very relevant in this context. He also told me to humble myself and forget trying to be cool and relevant, and just be real…supernaturally real. The Lakeland meetings themselves have offended me on just about every level at some point, but isn’t that just the Lord’s way? He always teaches me through the people I least want Him to teach me through to keep me humble. I remember being in the meeting one night thinking that the worship leader was doing everything that I had taught numerous worship leaders NOT to do, yet in that same meeting the worship band stopped playing and got on their faces while 4000 people sang, “Holy, Holy, Holy” for over an hour…spontaneously , and I ended up on my kness for that whole time.Oh for some of that! For me personally I have been affected by the power of God in a very deep way, which has genuinely increased my faith, made me hungry for relationship with Him, given me an unction to get out into the marketplace and “do the stuff” again, and not be so sniffy about other streams.
Like you, I feel at home in the Vineyard model, but sometimes the lack of “oomph” and often, sheer smugness drives me potty. I’m guilty of that and promoting that, and the Lord has dealt with me over it. Bottom line I think we need to take the good stuff from this, honour the guys that are doing what they think God is telling them and then pastor our own people with wisdom and discernment. Most importantly, if this is the Lord then its for the lost, not for us, so anything we get we need to give it away.
Just read your second post, and by “give it away” I take that to mean, take what God has given me and bless other with it. Whether that’s blessing, gifting, anointing, love, whatever.
I agree with you that language is important, and people get carried away, and get it wrong. Its especially evident in this media driven age. But I keep coming back to the fact that God will use faulty people and donkeys, thankfully. All that said Dan, your heart is evident to anyone that knows you so we need academics & thinkers like you as we need the dreamers and weirdos as we need the organisers, as we need the flakes, as we need the artists, as we need the accountants, etc etc.
I’m glad this disscussion is going, While I to am not quick to say what God can or can not do – I am most concerned with the theologiocal stream this comes from. This Elijah’s List – Prophetic/apostolic movement has major issues. Have you guys seen the video with Patrica King, Bob Jones and Todd B taling about their third heaven visitations? The gnostic tone of much of what this movement and Todd talks about is strong. The idea of a speacial anointing being passed down from william braham to KCP to Rodney Howerd brown and so on.
The emphasis on Angels – the angel of finace, Really? I get that the hersey hunters online will say whatever about whoever, this is from reading articles from Todd’s own web site – some articles(like the meeting with Paul) have been removed due to the encreased scruteny.
Here is quote refering to this meeting with the apostle paul.
“He was saying that, above all, God is releasing the message of the cross, the gospel, in power (preaching and salvation), but not without hidden mysteries and not without revelation. So the message of the hour is actually a twofold message. One: the message of the cross. Two: the message released with hidden mysteries revealed by revelation.”(Todd B)
I’m I miss reading this or this stait Gnostic theology?
Is all this to be overlooked? When do the bones become so many that eating the meat is not a worthwhile endever.
Graeme, thanks so much for entering into the discussion from another vantage point. Because I like you so much, I’m extra grateful! I trust we’ll be spending some time together soon.
Just for the record, I would not term myself primarily as an academic (thought it is much of my work these days) but primarily as an artist and dreamer with academic inclinations.
This is why I am challenged to step back, and evaluate – I know the aberrations far too well – I can justify anything from my experience and feelings about it’s efficacy.
I’m grateful for the details on how they do what they do, and I would lovingly disagree that “it’s nothing like Toronto.” These types of things are not so far apart. Many of the same equipping emphases were in place, emphasized and encouraged. And, for the record, I continue to have been renewed and encouraged by the whole experience.
And yes, “no, I have not been there.” God.TV is not entirely unhelpful, though, either for participation or observation.
I also am definitely not taking the posture of an antagonist – I am a protagonist for the Kingdom story and experience. I know that you are as well, which fills this conversation with play and delight!
I’m glad for the equipping emphasis of which you speak.
Chad’s thoughts are important, above. Chad, I agree that nothing should be overlooked. Your final comment on the bones and meat is poignant.
I would say this, though. I’m glad everything I’ve said and done is not under such scrutiny, but with the emphasis on “big and global,” it invites the scrutiny, much as my work with the Institute does.
If the Lakeland experience and Todd’s influence in leading it is going to have a dramatic impact on Christians in my community of 5000, leaving town to visit and get “it,” then I want to understand it.
John Wimber (leader of the Vineyard movemebnt for those who don’t know that name) underwent tremendous scrutiny as well, and he humbled himself in the face of it, and sought greater study and accountability as he moved forward. The jury is out on the result, but it made a home for me, and still does.
If I’m honest, some of my most significant encounters with God have been though experiencing art, beauty and engaging in liturgical settings – therefore I find much of the modernist church models (speaker up front, leading us in a big experience) far less appealing as I personally move forward.
One other note – I’m far less impressed by big things – I find it challenging to see the difference between great spiritual activity, momentum and hype. I know of amazing things that lacked the big push, and the display, to make them “global.”
It would be good to hear some others weigh in, also, as we continue the conversation. Again, I’m enriched by this, as I hope we all will be.
I think I meant that the fruit feels different to Toronto, but I am prone to making general, sweeping statements, especially when I get my teeth into something. Dan, thanks for providing the forum to discuss this in a sensible way, its good for the soul!
This is a balm for my soul.
Thanks
great, enlightening conversation gentlemen! dan, as always, you are such a gracious host!
i enjoyed the two longer comments you made even more than the post itself and i am so excited to see what god is doing in this emergent pneumatology – it resonates deeply in my soul.
This is an extremely helpful conversation. I find both comfort and challenge when address issues with robust and yet loving candor. Thanks much, Dan. Blessings from one of the “old” guys.
I’m pleased to hear a sensible discussion of this incredible subject.
But, alas, there is a lot of antagonism in the blogosphere. It is very easy to dismiss those who hate the miraculous of any kind in charismata. They are easy to spot: no research whatsoever, no personal witnessing of events, no attending or observation of services, attributing to hysteria or trickery….
There are a few charismatic-inclined who still find great fault with Todd Bentley. There is a video on youtube where Todd said the Spirit told him to kick an old woman in the face. That’s all the hostile ones look at and nothing else. Anything truly miraculous or soul-saving for Christ is ignored or dismissed.
I’ve learned a long time ago it is UTTERLY pointless to argue; so don’t bother. If someone believes in the Trinity but also that St Paul lives on the moon, don’t argue with them.
I look at it from this point. What is happening; what have I actually observed with my own eyes not someone else’s and compare it to the ancient viewpoint.
Here’s what I mean:
In the Christ’s time they didn’t have the New Testament to tell them how everything turned out. They went by teachers, the actual written word and made up their own minds.Chirst asked “who do people say I am” and got a dozen different answers. Jesus often told no one He was the Messiah and ordered His disciples to remain silent on this. Everyone had to think and figure it out.
Then when the day of Pentecost came, not everyone experienced the power and there was only a mild reference from Joel saying something about dreams and visions. It didn’t specifically address the particular events in the upper room.
But what can we do? One sound voice from Charisma magazine said we should pray for Todd. What a novel idea! (Remember that V-8 juice commercial where someone gets conked in the head as a reminder?)
PS I can’t explain the “face kicking” quote nor do I dismiss it. I can’t explain a lot of things.
What started out as a visit to Graeme’s Facebook profile, then the UK Facebook group postings on the Lakeland Outpouring, then a jump to here, I read all the comments and now I just gotta say something
.I too went to Lakeland expectant and apprehensive at the same time because I thought I would be a little triggered by the whole Pentecostal model and Todd’s flamboyant style. But the Lord really graced me to receive and the whole pilgrimage to Lakeland has really transformed our pastoral staff. (4 pastors and a board member). I used to work for a Pentecostal Televangelist who was AA Allen’s successor, anywhoo, he has his own cable show on BET. So I think it would be helpful to translate some of the words they use. They talk a lot about the “Anointing”, what they really mean by that word is the Presence of God on someone’s life, a smearing or marking. Or in the case of Lakeland, the Anointing or the Presence of God coming to a place. In the Vineyard, we know that the Power is in the Presence as the Wimbers used to say. It is the Kingdom in our midst. I know they talk about the “Power” all the time. But in the Vineyard, we know that the Power of God is just an expression of His love especially when it establishes His rule and reign on a person, place, situation. It’s true, there’s a lot of fleshly responses there, but I just love it when God pours out His Spirit on flesh and they sure do some crazy things.
And about that Todd story of “kicking someone in the face” thing. I wouldn’t put past him. I’m sure it happened. But I think the Holy Spirit tells you to some strange things sometimes. I remember when my wife had a sinus infection and she asked me for prayer and I was impressed my the Lord to flick her hard on the nose with my finger and she would be healed. Well I told her what I believed the Lord was telling me to do and she said to go for it. She got healed! I couldn’t believe it myself! LOL.
The fruit is definitely there. When we came back to our little Vineyard church, we did a little teaching on impartation, and the Spirit came just like He said he would. Bodies on the ground, healings, laughing, shaking etc…just like the early days… Then reports afterwards of more zeal and love for the Lord. There is an expectancy in our worship of meeting with Him. So I just encourage everyone to go. “Wise men still seek Him” as the old adage goes.
Like many Christians around the world, we, Rudy and Marny Pohl, pastors of Barrhaven New Life Church in Ottawa, have been watching the Lakeland Florida Outpouring on God TV via the internet since first becoming aware of it at the end of April 2008. We are well acquainted with the concerns and criticisms expressed by some about the outpouring and Todd Bentley, some of which we share. And while we do not agree with everything that is being said and done in Lakeland, nor with all the theological views held by the leadership, we nevertheless believe this to be a genuine outpouring of God’s Spirit and are encouraging our church to seek after all that God is doing through this present move.
Whenever something wasn’t perfect but it looked like God was in it John Wimber used to say, “We need to eat the meat and spit out the bones,” and “Don’t trim the bush until it bears fruit.” Similarly, we appreciate John Arnott’s approach to such things where he says: “We have more confidence in our loving Father’s ability to keep us than the enemy’s ability to deceive us.” And finally, perhaps a well-known religious leader from a former time said it best when he said: “If what is happening is from men, it will fail; but if it is from God you will not be able to stop it” (Acts 5:38-39 paraphrase).
I’ve been reading these posts over the past few days and figured it was time to chime in a bit.
I first heard about the Lakeland outpouring over dinner at an Outback Steakhouse in Lakeland, Fl. I happened to be there celebrating my mom’s birthday with my mom, my wife, and my stepfather. My mom and stepfather have been a part of Rodney Howard Brown’s River church and Bible School for several years. They served as children’s church pastors, traveled to Oahu to serve as missionaries and Church planters for River Hawaii with Rodney’s good friends Nick and Esther van Rensburg (at present they are conducting house church meetings without the support of pastor Brown). They have been faithful followers of Christ through all of this and have not seen the River Church honor their commitment. When they shared with me across the table that God is moving again through Todd Bentley like He did through Rodney Howard Brown several years before (in Lakeland). I was skeptical. Not of God’s ability to do miraculous things and that people would be led more astray than to Christ, but that committed believers in Christ would have to go through what my mom and step dad have gone through in these years of dealing with this type of ministry.
Dan I appreciate you opening up this conversation and appealing to Church history and the importance of the form in which these ministries deliver the message of God and allow the Holy Spirit to move amongst God’s people, and most importantly how discipleship is carried out. Todd Bentley and his ministry has been blessed with a huge responsibility to not only share the spiritual gifts they have been blessed with but to also disciple the flock that is gathering at these events. I don’t really have much of an opinion on the authenticity of the signs being displayed but I do have a heart for those that are coming to these meetings from the poor rural areas of Polk County, Florida (my home) who will be left with tons of questions and in their same socio-economic state when the Todd Bentley circus rolls on to the next town. I pray that discipleship happens and that the Lord will bless those who have witnessed God’s movement through this ministry with a church that welcomes and nurtures them in worship and truth for many years to come.
Sorry, after some prayer and the fact that we’re rolling into Father’s day weekend I provoked by the Holy Spirit to add this.
I pray that many who traveled far and wide to come to Lakeland remember that miracles are happening right where you are.
Take for instance the most amazing miracle I have ever experienced. My grandfather was a hard nosed Irish WWII vet who grew up in rural Indiana and moved to Florida to start his own business in the 1950’s. He was not know for his compassion and grace. He was known for his cussing, intimidating demenar, cigar smoking, whiskey drinking, poker playing ways. He did however attend church every sunday that I could ever remember. He sought forgiveness through the Lord and found it. My grandfather was transformed by the spirit from a man that used to spit racial slurs to one who would sit at the hospital bed of an African American employee who latter died of AIDS. And who, on his own deathbed, would have complete peace knowing that he belonged to our Lord and Savior.
These types of miracles happen over time and we often neglect to see these thing for what they are. Mighty movements of the Holy Spirit transforming our lives to be more and more like Christ over time.
These comments are all so rich, and so helpful. It’s a beautiful thing to share in “process,” the gift that community gives to one another.
For everyone lifting their voices up to contribute here, I want to say that many are reading this thread and seeming to find significant life in the “way” the dialogue is carrying on – not just the content. Very helpful.
To Rudy Pohl – I would say that biblicity is not the issue at hand, though I love the content of everything else offered and may, in the end, have absolutely no biblicity (the positive sense of the term – i.e. biblical scholarship) issues with Lakeland at all.
The Church’s issues have never primarily surrounded the idea of the objective biblicity of activities – as if that could every be attained – but rather the hermeneutic (interpretation of the Bible) that we bring to the table.
I’m concerned for the 21st century hermeneutic that Christians are bringing to the table. The form is what I’m on about – the content is not off-putting to me on most counts, as I’ve both led times of prayer ministry that were quite dramatic, and led worship in many conferences and events that were the same.
I’m concerned for our worldview – how God acts, where he acts, through whom he acts, what type of people He acts through, and most importantly, what the 10-50-300-500 year impact is of these events on the culture and on the Church’s Christian worldview.
All good; all rich commentary.
My concern is with the hermeneutic we bring to the table. I have no issue
Dan, thanks for this post and your comments following the post bringing more clarity and focus to the issues involved.
I’ve been watching on God TV and reading up on Todd’s own website. You’ve written out almost every single thing that concerns me about what’s going on right now.
Can I add a few thoughts for your feedback?
1) Arnotts oft quoted statement about trusting Father to lead us into all truth. I’m still amazed that he doesn’t get called on this. It’s opposite of what Jesus said and what Paul said and what both predicted about latter days. The history of the church is rich with false teachers who led huge groups of people away from the main and plain but apparently were protected from this now?
2) If “he” says they’re healed they must be healed! My issue isn’t healing – which I believe in, have experienced in me and been part of answered prayer for others. And I believe people are being healed at Lakeland. God’s good that way. But a lot of what I’ve seen is NOT healing – like the pastor who visited Lakeland, declared healed and died a week later of the cancer he’d been “healed” from. There’s such a rush for the hype that announces things as true and everyone takes it as true and it’s ALL true or is opposing what God is doing.
3) The fantastic. Todd says, among other things, that he’s met with Paul in heaven and cleared up the whole “who wrote Hebrews” question. (Abraham with Paul, just in case you’re curious.) Who am I to say he didn’t meet with Paul in heaven? Well, one of the nameless and faceless who knows a fantasy when he reads one. Does it matter when it comes to Lakeland? It seems to me like it should. I’m not calling the ‘miracles’ the fantastic because I’m relying and counting on those every day.
I hope that this hasn’t derailed the very grace-filled tone of your post and the comments that have followed. I acknowledge that I can sound very harsh when I talk about this. I think it comes from a place of fear. If anyone is interested in sharing a drive to Lakeland, let me know.
And on a worship/anthropological note: should we be concerned that singing the same 3 songs for one hour and often the same simple phrase over and over in conjunction with standing, jumping and other physical exertion often creates a highly suggestible, hypnotic state ?
Brian, speaking as a worship leader of nearly 15 years experience and someone who has been around the block a bit, and seen a few things. My answer to your last question is a resounding …..no!
The power of God was so strong and His present holiness so humbling that those of us there, when I was, couldn’t do anything else. The band were on their faces, the attendees were on there knees. I know forced and hyped when I see it, and certainly what I experienced was neither. You really need to go there. In fact for most of the time in those moments it was initiated by the congregation, en masse, the worship leader couldn’t have hyped it if he tried, it was genuine, again, at least what I experienced, which is all I can speak for.
Thanks Graeme. I wasn’t just thinking of Lakeland in particular with that last question but as part of the whole “genre”.
Dan
I noticed you have tagged this under the emerging church.
Do you really feel this has anything to with the emerging church?
I have to say I am very skeptical of yet another american revival…kicking someone in the face to heal them seems very odd to me…incidently if you have a look on you tube you can see todd at the toronto blessing talking about meeting a 14 foot angel…
Marc, great comment – and my answer is a clear “absolutely I do.”
Why? The emerging church movements of today have a strong missiology, i.e. theology of mission, but in my estimation lack a strong accompanying pneumatology, i.e. theology of the Holy Spirit.
In the vacuum, the same types of church style wave the banner for the masses of many contemporary Church streams that love the Holy Spirit’s activity as expressed in miracle, signs and wonders.
In North America, the ripples are being felt in many places, specifically within my own movement and others (the Mennonites in the southern US, for example).
It is part of the mission of we who say that we are part of the emerging paradigm of Church to speak into what was, what is, and what could/should be.
You should be skeptical of yet another american revival; yet none of us should be so skeptical if we ourselves are not seeing some of the more dramatic themes of healing and miracle occur that seem to riddle the New Testament we all embrace.
For the reason of furthering the conversation about the work of the Holy Spirit, in the now, and in the centuries to come, I tag it “emerging church.”
I think its in our nature to be skeptical, and as Dan said that can be a good thing, in the context of testing and measuring lovingly. I also think that its good that we have completely different streams within Christianity as we balance each other out. As you can probably tell I’m closer to the charismatic end of the spectrum, but I can draw benefit from others of a different view. For example I love some of the beauty of the catholic church but have some issues theologically. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if God used them powerfully. Equally I have had alarm bells go off with some of the quotes I have heard from Brian McLaren, but I have to remind myself that I haven’t actually read a full book of his, or talked to him, therefore I don’t have the whole picture. In that context I should appreciate his questioning, his thinking and give him the benefit of the doubt that his heart behind his thinking is good. The important thing for a season like this is that we as the church honour each other, think the best and have good, open hearts. God never does things the way we would…thankfully
Remembering Toronto, I am both excited and scared for the phenomenon taking place in Lakeland. I am excited because there does seem to be times and places where the Kabod of God descends and our social tapestry of signs and symbols are temporarily altered/suspended. You can see it in the looseness of language – the lack of clarity, the fluff, and the other-worldliness of such events – it is as if the humdrum of the everyday evaporates and life is seen anew and head on. Anything can happen in this vortex of meaning, where the past and future fade into the now.
My worry then is that people will not see the God beyond the experience – that people will not have wise teachers, in the light of this maelstrom of meaning, to realign the story they live in, to that of the Gospel story in all its richness, from beginning to the end. I worry that the majority of people that have a firm foundation and sound doctrine will keep their distance instead of engaging and critiquing in a way that would accurately/lovingly divide truth from error.
I have always wondered why people within these settings are so apt to avoid criticism and perspectives that challenge their own interpretation of what is going on. In the end, the miracle I’d like to see most is a spirit of conviction in regards to our narcissistic tendencies as a society, and to our overly affective epistemology (it feels good therefore it is good).
So I agree with you Dan, language is important, the medium is the me(/a)ssage (What you win them with, is what you win them to), and let’s pray this maelstrom gathers a centrifugal attunement to the greater Christian story – spitting out individuals and communities that will engage and confront the systems of this world to yield to the emergence of God’s kingdom – that Jesus is Lord of All, that our triune God is righting this broken world, that heaven is breaking through and all will be made new. Till then, we actively hope in the face of much evil – inside us and out…
I am curious why the Emergent Church movement is so silent on Bentley
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/06/17/todd-bentley-the-lakeland-revival/
Todd Bentley makes me think of 1 John 4:1 and Matthew 24:24 when I read or hear about him.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hB7fz8LrzYk
J, to be honest this outpouring, and the resulting “reaction” reminds me more of Matthew 12:25-28
“25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
Lets see what fruit comes before we chop down the tree. I would apply that to the Emergent Church too, for those of us that are cynical of that stream. Grace and loving discussion is important in this season.
“Let’s see what fruit comes before we chop down the tree?” Graeme, I don’t understand this. This is what was said about Toronto. I was 17 when I started going in 1994. I loved that place, played on the worship team on occasion, and was healed of a 3 year bout of clinical depression. I saw all kinds of great things happen there – relationships restored, faith and intimacy renewed in our God who cares, and people spent every moment possible worshipping and giving thanks.
But 10 years on, I see the exact opposite. More so the rule than not, the people I knew from then have gone astray, relationships have failed, some have left the faith all together, others are extremely confused about church and about God. So, I don’t think we have the option of waiting to see what fruit will come. I have spent the last 5 years trying to figure out how something that seemed so amazing at the time can in merely 10 years seem so ephemeral and meaningless? I pray that history will not repeat in Lakeland…may sound teaching and discipleship meld with wonder and grace.
Hi Ryan, that’s not really what I’m saying, in fact I’m in agreement with you that we need sound teaching along with the other stuff. What, I guess I mean is, that often we will jump on things and write them off as false without any real knowledge of what’s actually happening (I’m not including you on this). What we should do is allow for God to grow and mature a thing, whilst pastoring our people through it. I’ve said before that what impressed me about the leadership in Lakeland (which is much more than just Todd Bentley) continually (every day) talked about their journey, what they’d learned and how they had been corrected. They also underwent some very vicious and personal attacks, which understandably riled them and upset them. There was biblical teaching when I was there, there were safeguards during ministry times, everything was explained and carefully done. There is also an emphasis on evangelism and reaching the lost, which I didn’t see around the time of Toronto. But again, I never went to Toronto so I don’t really know. I think if we look back through history we will see many failures and mistakes, but also some good stuff that came out of it. Methodism was cutting edge and offensive to some in its day, as was Luther, as was the Salvation Army, Azusa Street etc. In this day and age we are used to reviewing and analysing everything. I never buy a piece of musical equipment without reading opinions and reviews, or a book without going through the user opinions on Amazon. We need wisdom, discernment and grace. None of us are perfect and if God chose anyone in this discussion to have a global influence in a short space of time, we’d make a few errors of judgement. I know I would. That said, I do think that its healthy that we look at things like Toronto and learn from the mistakes made so that we can care for our people and join God in His work, also remembering that no matter what God does some people will always fall away, that’s where discipleship comes in, so we can minimise that. I join you in your prayer at the end of your comment.
Hi Dan and others,
Thanks so much for the conversation going on here. Mike Turrigiano passed along your blog to the folks at the North Brooklyn Vineyard, for which I am grateful.
I am a Vineyard PK from SoCal with experience in the Anglican church, the Soul Survivor movement and have attended some Victory Outreach meetings, so I have certainly seen the Spirit move in a variety of “packages.” I appreciate the concern over this aspect of what is going on in Lakeland and the discerning/thoughtful approach here.
There are two thoughts I wanted to add, first, is that in a number of discussions with Christians from all kinds of backgrounds from Europe and the U.S., I have heard from a number of people that they had a sense from the Spirit that revival was coming. I have also consistently heard them seperately say God spoke to them–encouraging humility, to repent of pride, and against a “too cool” attitude.
I believe we should continue to be discerning about what is going on in Lakeland, to pray for the leaders there, but I also take it as a good sign that people totally unconnected with Lakeland (some who don’t even know what is going on) have a sense that God is on the move. May we pray for that and be open to that in the midst of our local bodies.
Secondly, I remember John Wimber talking about a meeting he had with a famous pentecostal leader who had presided over “power” meetings. He told John that they had incredible meetings with an awesome sense of God, but that when John had the same, he should “spend the power on the poor.” As we hope and pray that if God is on the move (and he always is, this is just a new wineskin), my own hope and prayer is that God would unify his Church in love, and turn it inside-out, “spending” the power on the lost, on the poor, and on the hurting.
Dan, I really appreciate your thoughts and I agree with most all of them. I think you have provided a balnced response to Lakeland.
I have been to Lakeland 3 times now. In fact just last week Mike Turrigiano, Craig Simonian and I went down, Vineyard pastors all.
This has been my experience. I too was in Toronto in February of 1994. It was both wonderful and difficult for me personally. I saw a lot of wonderful thinsg happen for people and I saw some things that weren’t so wonderful. Since then I have always been resolved not to go to any outpouring unless I felt truly led by Holy Spirit. Didn’t go to Brownsville or Pensacola, not for any reason other than I didn’t feel led. In this case I got anemail from a friend telling me about Lakeland about 7 weeks back. She was asking for my thougts. I read the email and while reading it I felt the Lord onme and I began to cry. That happened several times over the following week. Finally, I felt like the Spirit was saying to go. I was very apprehensive. I checked Todd Bentley out on God.tv and didn’t find him to be what I mgith expect. But I couldn’t get it out. The Lord said I was to go alone. I tried very hard no to but in the end I couldn’t get anyone to come, I still don’t think I have the perfect obedience thing down. So, Off I went. Once there I was immediately inpacted by two things and I am convinced now that these two things are the central issue for what is happening there. The first is the hunger of the people for Jesus and the Second is the Lord’s rich presence in response to that hunger. I feel like we are getting hungrier for the Lord and the Lord in many ways is at least equally hungry for us. Not in a needy way, I don’t want you to think that our hunger is the same as His. He is just so passionate for us, that is so amazing to me.
There is a lot there that can disturb. The teaching is nothing to write home about and it can be very much over the top. Lots of bone to spit out. But the meat is so wnderfully rich with the one we love it is well worht the effort.
Mike has not worn his hearing aids in a week now, Craig and I are renewed and revivied and more passionate about Jesus and ministry that we have been in aquite a while. Thre churches have been positivley touched. SO there has been more good than bad.
We are simply having a once a week deep night of wirship for hours and the Lord has been showing up so wonderfully rich. We have had some healing but mostly an increase in faith and passion. I think this is just an invitation to the body. I don’t think this is the meal and to his credit neither does Todd.
They have iniated training in the afternoons for street evangelism and are taking teams out Monday through Saturday so they are starting to go outward; which is a really good thing.
In closing I’d like to share one last thing. The other day I asked the Lord “Why Todd Bentley? I eman Lord he is not a great choice, there has to be someone better”. I felt ike the Lord said that Todd is the message. His hunger and willingness to be foolish. Now don’t get on me for this. But I also felt like HE said That he, the Lord, values good biblical teaching and theology, but His presence is of even higher value. Now let me just say this. I had no sense at all that The Lor d was saying throw out your theology, go ahead and be flaky.The sense I had was simply that hunger for Him, for His presence, for authentic Holy Spirit is something He is going to respond to in a very big way. The healing and miracles are a by product of His presence in Lakeland.
I do believe that we need balance and discernment. We need to take the best and throw away the rest. But I am convinced that it is genuinely God and that it very well may lead to something significant.
PS. I was told my another Vineyard pastor that was there, that a few eeks ago Todd asked if there were any Vineyadr pastors present, there were 20 to 30 I was told and Todd said that earlier that day the Lord said that he was going to move us in a double protion from what was done through John. I hope he heard the Lord right. I also hope that is true for not just the Vineyard but for all of His church.
I’m so stoked to read that Mike isn’t wearing his hearing aids. Mike and Char made me feel so welcome when I visited the North Brooklyn Vineyard in January. I learned so much in one day about authentic spiritual leadership just watching and hanging out with those guys. Its a great church too, lots of heart, reality and passion.
I was just with Mike yesterday and he is doing great. He would tell you he doesn’t have 20/20 hearing, but he is hearing at least as well without the hearing aids as he was with them. In fact he had to get new ones the other day, scheduled before we left or Lakeland, and when the audiologist put them in Mike said they sounded weird and he had to take them out. When he did everything was clear again. Mike is a pragmatist so he takes things slow, to his credit, so he takes a quiet approach. I, on the other hand would say, he has been healed significantly. I have been close freinds with Mike for 22 years now and I know how poorly he was hearing. I had to translate consistently. Now he is telling me what people are saying. Pretty funny. The funniest thing is he called me the other day and I asked him what he was doing. He said “I am calling my friends on my cell phone, it is amazing how clearly you can hear people on these things”.
As for spiritual leadership? There is non better, Mike and Char are great leaders and great friends, full of practical wisdom. Love them much.
I’d like to add one additonal thought concerning Lakeland. You can not really access rightly what is going on there through God.tv or youtube clips. The weight of the Lord’s presence is so powerful in the midst of worship that you can’t evaluate rightly what is going on there without first hand experience. For us on our trip last week we would say that ALL our needs were met for the most part in the worship (in a profound way)and at the word of knowledge ministry for healing. The teaching/preaching didn’ feed us at all. But the presnece of God is so powerful you really don’t need anything else. There is not much that can be said or added to His presence. That alone was worth our trips.
Good post, Dan.
However, I need to ask a question. You say that the sick are healed and the dead are raised. I HEAR alot of talk about that, BUT, where is the proof? It’s one thing to claim xx number of resurrections, (I think the number is 22 now), but where is the proof? Where is the medical documentation of this? I have seen clips of individuals getting out of wheelchairs, claiming their healings, but needing assistance to walk. When Jesus healed, it was total and complete. There was a gentleman with 2 prosthetic legs and a glass eye, claiming healing because God caused his legs to “grow” an inch, and he claimed he could “see” light through his glass eye. Wouldn’t it have been more glorifying to God if those legs actually regrew to complete whole legs? And what about that eye? It would have really been a miracle if the glass eye popped out and rolled across the platform because a new eye had been created. These “miracles” of limbs growing an inch are nothing new. However they are totally unverifiable, we have to take the individual’s word for it. Those individuals can be caught up in the emotionalism of the moment.
A second concern I have is the emphasis on angelic visitations, and messages. I posted a clip on my blog concerning this. The comments Todd makes are quite disturbing.
I know from my experience in the Vineyard that the whole issue with Toronto caused a great deal of pain. Churches split over the issue. It’s happening again. If this is revival, where is the transformation? Ask yourselves, did Toronto change as a city? No, at least not that I can tell. (Their Hockey team still sucks
)
I still don’t see the things that marked great revivals of the past. To me it just seems like a party for Jesus. When the party’s over, these people become disillusioned and end up moving on to get their next fix.
So many good comments here. Michael, when the statements are made that the dead are raised, it is indeed fair to ask for proof.
However, as a pastor who walked through the middle of Toronto, I’d have to bring another perspective. I encountered, on a first hand level, an undeniable landslide of transformed lives.
By transformed, I mean healings, restorations, a renewed sense of mission (a healthy view of it in culture) and a living manifestation of love empowering people to be truly human.
On the other hand, it was always accompanied with some degree of mess. We would have to write off 90% of church history if we demanded a lack of human mess in any given historic “move” of God – I don’t think any of us would be so arrogant to do that.
Parties and fixes aside (I won’t argue the point), and this particular discussion on Lakeland aside, the story is bigger than our preferences. Truthfully, I’ve had my mind offended many times, so I’m not so quick to run everything through the same filters.
I truthfully love and appreciate the honesty of your comment, and your warnings against emotionalism. However, emotionality and emotionalism are too different things, and the God I see at work historically is not afraid to play in the realm of either the balance or imbalance of such.
I would like to be smart enough to know the difference between the two.
Yes, reputable medical reports would be a beautiful thing; especially for western Christians.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your kind response. I guess for me, I was a part of the Vineyard in Edmonton for the years thru the TB and because you were closer to the “action” so to speak, you would have had more experience with it.
My concern with Todd is the seeming reliance on extra-biblical experiences, such as angelic messengers, and heavenly visits. When Paul made a quick trip to the third heaven, he wasn’t allowed to speak of what he saw, yet, Todd seemingly brags about his experiences. I just think caution is needed.
BTW, Mak Wollenberg and Mark Taverner were both my pastors. I think you know them both. Mark T., walked me through some incredibly hard stuff. I guess I need to get back to church after not attending for nearly 2 years!
I love your passion for worship, Dan.
Regarding the Florida Healing Outpouring:
Joining in, I would like to describe the related experience we’ve had in our local body. I am from a church in New England. This revival in Florida broke out while our senior pastor was away on sabbatical. Several church members began watching the revival on God TV (www.us.godtv.com). One of our members hopped on a plane to go “get some” and receive a healing. He also hoped to bring the anointing back to our church and expected that the Holy Spirit would pour out healing and blessing and that the spiritual activity would raze the roof. His expectation was extremely high.
This man took it upon himself to begin stepping out in faith, praying for the fire to come upon us. He also returned with faith for God to heal anything!
Upon his return, a small group of people asked me to begin showing this revival on the big screens in our sanctuary. They were excited about the signs and wonders being performed by God. Unfortunately, every time I tuned into the live broadcast, I happened to catch the instances that were questionable as far as method and theology.
My decision to defer while the senior pastor was away was met with angst by them. I deferred to the assistant pastor, and the reaction was the same. People are so hungry to see the move of God in our churches! There was some division among brothers and sisters over whether or not the revival was real, over Todd Bentley’s appearance and particular ways that he prays or “BAM!”s people. I felt that this division was all the more reason to wait for the senior pastor to return.
Our Pastor took us carefully through the scriptures and reminded us of what we are to be prepared for, what to look for, and reminded us that the purpose for revival is to call hearts back to Jesus Christ. He encouraged the people.
Without having the deep knowledge of the Bible, and needing a shepherd, I believe that one thing I can be helpful with is encouraging dialogue and discussion and reading of the Word. The Lord will be faithful to reveal His Truth.
It’s fairly simple, I think. As our assistant pastor and our senior pastor stated, this will be clear enough in time. It will be known by its fruit. With any revival recorded, I think we could dig up discourse on how much of it was flesh and how much of it was by the Spirit. Nature of God: meet nature of imperfect man. We must be accountable, though, to help each other follow the Savior and His purposes. We must study His Word.
Meanwhile, at our church, we do not discount any move of the Lord; in fact, we look forward to it. We do not discount His desire to move among His children and to call hearts to Him. We are a church that came about during the Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Spirit-Filled movements.
Thankfully, serious division and argument were averted by turning to the Word of God, and by looking at the historical moves of God. We have had an opportunity to grow, to get back to the Word, and to renew our hope in God.
Just above here, I wrote:
“Without having the deep knowledge of the Bible, and needing a shepherd, I believe that one thing I can be helpful with is encouraging dialogue and discussion and reading of the Word. The Lord will be faithful to reveal His Truth.”
I was not speaking of myself, but I see the words were unclear. When there are people who come to church as new believers, not having a deep knowlege of God, I hope to be a helpful friend/sister when it comes to new things like news of the revival.
Great thoughts here, Jamie. Thanks for participating in this discussion. It sounds like you chose the path of peace (often less trodden) and trust, and it will yield the fruits of the Spirit on many levels.
The “rush” can indeed be over rated, and the pace this community took is a good model for many.
I would strongly discourage any pastor to take what they get in Lakeland and direct the church towards some type of similar meeting on Sunday morniongs. As pastors and particularly senior/lead pastors, anything we get from Lakeland or similar experiences should be brought into the context of our specific vision, mission and values; and applied in ways that would be fruitful in and out of the church. I think it is very unhealthy to turn Sunday services into revival meetings. We must stay balanced. There is nothing wrong having a separate time for those that want to be revived to come worship for extended times, press in and soak. Wich, by the way that is the best of Lakeland; the presence of the Lord in worship. However, we need to stay the course. That doesn’t mean do nothing, just remember what you are called to be. Now if the Lord should decide to arrive in a special way on a Sunday, “WONDERFUL” but we shouldn’t manufacture aything. I saw a few churches after Toronto, who had turned alle thier services over to the TB and it caused division, hurt and confusion. Those that pastored it and made separate room for it seemed to come through fine. Just a thought!
I zoomed over to Lakeland with Jason Scott (Dungannon Vineyard) at the end of June and since being back have also attended a few “outpouring” meetings held in a couple of Elim Pentecostal churches. The biggest thing for me is the fruit in my own walk with God. Mind you, praying for folk is certainly more fun since coming back, as God’s presence seems to come quickly and powerfully.
My wife (who has suffered from post-natal depression) was recently powerfully touched by God’s power at a local “Outpouring Meeting” here in Belfast after I got back from Lakeland. We prayed for a friend who was consistantly passing blood (we were told that this stopped after he felt heat surge through his body). We’ve also prayed for a Presbyterian healing team (one of whom had been to Lakeland too) in our front room a few nights ago. The evening was as powerful an experience as anything we’ve ever encountered as we prayed for impartation, deliverance, healing and wholeness. People were all over the floor and we’re still shaking.
I spoke with a couple who (off their own bat) organised meetings in a hotel in Athlone when one of Todd Bentley’s Associates was over two weeks ago. It seems that such was the power of God that on their second night people were coming to the front to receive Jesus even before an “altar call”. About 75 people became Christians.
Now, wouldn’t it be sweet if people were rushing to bring friends and family to our services as they hear that God is on the move with great power? Do we have to “do Outpouring” in the style of Todd Bentley? I do not think so. Is the power of God being poured-out to heal, save, renew, refresh and empower? Oh yes!!
So guys… What do we do in light of a powerful move of God being poured-out at this time, in our day, for our generation? How do we, as Vineyard folk, bless what the Father is doing and actively and intentionally release it in our churches so that we can pray “Holy Spirit, Come” and see God’s power fall, big-time?
Being part of the church-planting and leadership team in the early years of our church, we were aware that some people came to our church expecting it to look and feel like a full-on Wimber conference (of course, they left when this was not the case). Perhaps God is pouring out His Spirit in these days so that perhaps some of our services can be a little like that. Wouldn’t that be fun? Wouldn’t that be “Vineyard?
What do you think?
Azman, Very well said. I heard that Todd prophesied that the Lord was going to release a double portion of what was released through John to the Vineyard. I have a great hope that the Lord will soon do just that. Hesring about what the Lord is doing at your church is very encouraging
For: The Institute Of Contemporary And Emerging Worship Studies, St. Stephen’s University, Essentials Blue Online Worship Theology Course with Dan Wilt
When assessing an event like this, I tend to look at it from the conservative side. I have personally had a part of charismania, like Dan, and understand the drawbacks involved. It can lead to an emotional experience lacking in spirituality.
This is where the Essentials Blue course becomes relevant. In N.T. Wright’s book “simply christian”, he identifies four “echoes” of God on the earth. They are listed as Beauty, Justice, Relationship, and Spirituality. As humans, we strive for spirituality; it is a glimpse of God.
In revival, we see many turning to God through a spiritual awakening, which is great! It is important, however, that it is accompanied by a strong foundation of truth. Otherwise it can be no better than any new age movement.
It is also important for us to be constantly praying for those leading these revivals. These servants of God are more subject to the enemy’s attack than your average christian. All it takes is a tiny slip-up for someone like Bentley to lose all credibility.
when I see the revival songs, I do not see any moving of the Holy Spirit. In Todd’s preaching only miracles will be more nothing else. In India, most of the Gurus (religious leaders can easily perform and say what all Todd is speaking. where is true repentance? are the unbelievers recieving salvation in a right heart? Moreover, I do not see any Bible study with strong Biblical base. The way they dress, the way they sing and preach the way they claim is really distubing. I am born and brought up in a Hindu family and got saved in a pentecostal church. I believe in baptism in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues and miracles. Jesus is same yeaterday today and forever. The one who performed miracles is still the same and is doing. But when I think of Todd revival I only think of as someone pointed our, I Jn. 4:1 and Matt. 24:24. Glory belong to Jesus alone! if people are trying to cliam with all sorts of Heroism then we know who is behind that. I feel that Todd’s meetings are mis guiding peopel. I donot know exactly what is happening. BUT I believe God knows all. if a man is truly led by the Holy Spirti would be able to sense the spirit that is working. I pray that the children of God would decern the reality and follow the word of God.
Chandru
“The way they dress, the way they sing and preach the way they claim is really distubing.”
To be honest, I see nothing wrong with the way they dress and sing and preach. It’s what he preaches, or doesn’t preach that is disturbing. Kicking old ladies in the face, kicking seriously ill people in the stomach, leg dropping pastors, and then saying, “The Spirit told me to do that”, makes me question what spirit Bentley is listening to.
John –
I’d like to hear more from you about this line, “no better than any new age movement.” I think you’re coming close to the reason why some of these overly theatrical meetings leave many with uncomfortable feelings and thoughts, not that they are overtly new age but rather that they have a ‘performance’ mentality. We need to be thinking about being faithful, not successful.
I’d also like to agree with chandru on his comment about “the way they dress” but not for the reason that Michael L assumes. I agree with Chandru’s crticism of Bentley and Co’s dress because of capitalism. In one sense, there is nothing wrong with dressing a certain way just because you are a Christian, but there is something wrong with focusing so much on being relevant, by your dress and tattoos, that you end up trying to ’sell’ Jesus by your style.
I hope this makes sense. The money and resources we sink into being relevant may actually be paying homage to a god different from the one that raised Jesus from the dead; we may be sinfully wanting the same success as Nike. When we do this, we accept capitalism’s terms that we can only succeed by selling our ideas. As Christians, our success must look different and be for different reasons, our ends and our means.
when I saw him baptizing the people, for some he did not even pronounced the name of the father son and HOly Spirit, but just said, bang! and they fell in the water and baptisem was over. Is it biblical.
Chandru,
If that type of thing is what you are referring to, my apologies. No, that nonsense is clearly not right as it makes light of a holy sacrament. I misunderstood your posting. My point is that the casual style of dress and preaching that many use today, I have no problem with. I clearly have a problem with someone putting his biker boot to the face of an old lady, and the other numerous acts of violence Bentley has commited in God’s name.
Some updated information and comment on Lakeleand on my website above.
Thanks for this Brian.
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