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	<title>Comments on: Our Creational And Redemptive Story</title>
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	<description>spiritual storytelling, keeping faith</description>
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		<title>By: Confessions of a heretic &#171; tim victor&#8217;s musings</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-471943</link>
		<dc:creator>Confessions of a heretic &#171; tim victor&#8217;s musings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] he Christian faith is being undermined. Commenting on our Creational and Redemptive Story Dan Wilt says the following: I believe that a subtly diminished view of the b [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] he Christian faith is being undermined. Commenting on our Creational and Redemptive Story Dan Wilt says the following: I believe that a subtly diminished view of the b [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Theory on Spiritual Dialogue &#171; tim victor&#8217;s musings</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-405990</link>
		<dc:creator>A Theory on Spiritual Dialogue &#171; tim victor&#8217;s musings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-405990</guid>
		<description>[...] a change of expression gets viewed as akin to a change of the Source. No doubt, as DanWilt points out end users and seekers as well as ambassadors shifting vehicles of  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a change of expression gets viewed as akin to a change of the Source. No doubt, as DanWilt points out end users and seekers as well as ambassadors shifting vehicles of  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-386831</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-386831</guid>
		<description>Great comment, Walt! And greetings. I, too, would love to embrace the sweet refrain that &#039;Jesus points to the Father who points to the Spirit who points to the Son&#039; trinitarian relational dance. My head would like to spin in this beautiful harmony, but it feels more like vertigo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comment, Walt! And greetings. I, too, would love to embrace the sweet refrain that &#8216;Jesus points to the Father who points to the Spirit who points to the Son&#8217; trinitarian relational dance. My head would like to spin in this beautiful harmony, but it feels more like vertigo.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter Thiessen</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-382831</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Thiessen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-382831</guid>
		<description>Let me dive into the edges of heresy here and suggest that a part of the problem may be the lack of good imaginative ways to conceptualize or even create good metaphors for the trinity. After a good invigorating chat with Ed Gentry myself (he seems good at that doesn&#039;t he), he pushed me into my frustrations with normal trinitarian formulations. (My deepest frustration comes in response to the ease with which so many writers, and others that I otherwise like, lay the foundation for a relational/love-based universe on the wonderful loving pre-existent relationships among the Trinity. My brain has no grid for this picture - I start thinking about my own loving relationship with my spirit and get nowhere.) What emerged was the speculation (on my part) that Trinity language is less useful as a description for the pre-creation Godhead and is better seen as a manifestation of God-ness that results from creation - particularly creation climaxing in humanity made in God&#039;s image. 

I think the direction that communicates the essence of the relationship between God and Jesus the best for these times might be the language of Jesus as the incarnation and revelation of the Creator God whose love enables reconciliation and relationship  through the potent combination of trust with the willingness to become powerless (accept powerlessness? - the centrality of the cross). 

In terms of the uniqueness of Christ, we could then emphasize less the confession of Christian dogma (which has been so grotesquely distorted by being involved in completely non-Jesus-like power plays and association with non-Jesus-like ways of living) as the ticket to heaven and more the common human pursuit for holistic salvation that finds such a unique possibility in Jesus&#039; revelation/teaching/example. People in other faith traditions can come to appreciate that powerful new possibility while slowly integrating the ways in which this challenges prior assumptions and traditions (of course this applies to a lot of Christian traditions and assumptions as well).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me dive into the edges of heresy here and suggest that a part of the problem may be the lack of good imaginative ways to conceptualize or even create good metaphors for the trinity. After a good invigorating chat with Ed Gentry myself (he seems good at that doesn&#8217;t he), he pushed me into my frustrations with normal trinitarian formulations. (My deepest frustration comes in response to the ease with which so many writers, and others that I otherwise like, lay the foundation for a relational/love-based universe on the wonderful loving pre-existent relationships among the Trinity. My brain has no grid for this picture &#8211; I start thinking about my own loving relationship with my spirit and get nowhere.) What emerged was the speculation (on my part) that Trinity language is less useful as a description for the pre-creation Godhead and is better seen as a manifestation of God-ness that results from creation &#8211; particularly creation climaxing in humanity made in God&#8217;s image. </p>
<p>I think the direction that communicates the essence of the relationship between God and Jesus the best for these times might be the language of Jesus as the incarnation and revelation of the Creator God whose love enables reconciliation and relationship  through the potent combination of trust with the willingness to become powerless (accept powerlessness? &#8211; the centrality of the cross). </p>
<p>In terms of the uniqueness of Christ, we could then emphasize less the confession of Christian dogma (which has been so grotesquely distorted by being involved in completely non-Jesus-like power plays and association with non-Jesus-like ways of living) as the ticket to heaven and more the common human pursuit for holistic salvation that finds such a unique possibility in Jesus&#8217; revelation/teaching/example. People in other faith traditions can come to appreciate that powerful new possibility while slowly integrating the ways in which this challenges prior assumptions and traditions (of course this applies to a lot of Christian traditions and assumptions as well).</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Victor</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-381190</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-381190</guid>
		<description>Hi Dan,

Great response. I&#039;m one of those Christians proposing such distinctions as well as a deliberate and responsible exploration.

I believe this in part benefits Christians, enabling a greater scope of spiritual practices that may be appropriated and applied to the pursuit of Jesus along with the kingdom/reign dream of Godde.

Christians, in my experience, have generally used theology as a stumbling block, expecting people wrestling with broader questions of faith to subscribe to something without sufficient engagement. Our &#039;need&#039; to evangelise is often not tempered with sensitivity to the process/journey people are going through.

I believe that we have to be more sensitive to the process, the journey, of others and find ways of enabling them to deliberately and responsibly explore toward finding Jesus themselves (or not).

Would you be keen on a synchro-blog on this subject?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dan,</p>
<p>Great response. I&#8217;m one of those Christians proposing such distinctions as well as a deliberate and responsible exploration.</p>
<p>I believe this in part benefits Christians, enabling a greater scope of spiritual practices that may be appropriated and applied to the pursuit of Jesus along with the kingdom/reign dream of Godde.</p>
<p>Christians, in my experience, have generally used theology as a stumbling block, expecting people wrestling with broader questions of faith to subscribe to something without sufficient engagement. Our &#8216;need&#8217; to evangelise is often not tempered with sensitivity to the process/journey people are going through.</p>
<p>I believe that we have to be more sensitive to the process, the journey, of others and find ways of enabling them to deliberately and responsibly explore toward finding Jesus themselves (or not).</p>
<p>Would you be keen on a synchro-blog on this subject?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-380842</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-380842</guid>
		<description>Great input, Dylan. Thanks for the pointer to Shane&#039;s book as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great input, Dylan. Thanks for the pointer to Shane&#8217;s book as well.</p>
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		<title>By: dylan mckeeman</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-380674</link>
		<dc:creator>dylan mckeeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-380674</guid>
		<description>Dan, 
This is great conversation on a area of our faith that has troubled me for some time.  The conversations we had last fall on the subject have sparked much searching and thinking.  I have found that many of us (Christians) are afraid to dive into this perspective that there are things outside of our christian bubble that could greatly enrich our relationship with Christ and the way we connect to those whom do not know Him yet.  I have found that when I step out of the Box that we have placed our faith in, I begin to know Christ more intimately because I begin to see Him from different perspectives.  I have had some conversations lately with close friends that are stepping out of their bubble to gain greater perspective on the Creator and Healer of all things.  What they are experiencing as they explore different streams of the Church and even spiritual truth outside of our defined church has brought them to act and live a life that more resembles that of Jesus Christ.  I am excited to be on that sort of path now and can&#039;t wait to see what the Lord will show me as I dip my foot in the waters of these converging streams that have been around us for ages yet as of late we Christians have become complacent in our journey down the calm creek of Western Christianity.  I don&#039;t know if you&#039;ve read it yet but Shane Claiborne&#039;s book Irresistible Revolution:  Living as an Ordinary Radical is a great example of someone who steps out of the Box and real life change occurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,<br />
This is great conversation on a area of our faith that has troubled me for some time.  The conversations we had last fall on the subject have sparked much searching and thinking.  I have found that many of us (Christians) are afraid to dive into this perspective that there are things outside of our christian bubble that could greatly enrich our relationship with Christ and the way we connect to those whom do not know Him yet.  I have found that when I step out of the Box that we have placed our faith in, I begin to know Christ more intimately because I begin to see Him from different perspectives.  I have had some conversations lately with close friends that are stepping out of their bubble to gain greater perspective on the Creator and Healer of all things.  What they are experiencing as they explore different streams of the Church and even spiritual truth outside of our defined church has brought them to act and live a life that more resembles that of Jesus Christ.  I am excited to be on that sort of path now and can&#8217;t wait to see what the Lord will show me as I dip my foot in the waters of these converging streams that have been around us for ages yet as of late we Christians have become complacent in our journey down the calm creek of Western Christianity.  I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve read it yet but Shane Claiborne&#8217;s book Irresistible Revolution:  Living as an Ordinary Radical is a great example of someone who steps out of the Box and real life change occurs.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-380450</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-380450</guid>
		<description>Great question, Tim. I do believe that we can, though it takes strong hearts and minds to do so well without diluting the specificity of Jesus, and without being confused along the way (which can actually be, in my estimation, an important part of the growth process).

Creationalism tells us that truth is bubbling in broken image bearers everywhere, throughout time and throughout the stories of religion (and philosophy). Truth resides in culture, art and even socio-religious worldviews outside of Christianity.

However, an effective study of world religions shows us that there is good theology, and bad theology in the world. There are helpful ideas in religions, and harmful (especially when a seemingly innocuous idea is extrapolated to its logical conclusions en masse).

Often, I believe that there are riches, especially creationally, to be gleaned from the world cultures of the ages (primitive to today). I also believe there are many ideas that would make us poorer if we all followed them.

In the realm of redemptive stories, I believe much &quot;separation of the good from the bad&quot; begins to take place.

Does the &quot;all things will be made new and we will participate in the restoring of new creation&quot; view of the eschaton (age to come) ring more beautifully and soundly than &quot;eventually we&#039;ll all evolve to a place where we become smart enough, and peaceful enough, to manage this good earth?&quot; It&#039;s a good question. I think the gift of the new atheists (Dawkin&#039;s, et al) is to suggest that the Christian view of heaven weakens our enthusiasm to fix things in the here and now.

How important it is to hear that. And then, how important it is to understand that our contemporary views of heaven, as Wright and others are helping us to see, are fundamentally unbiblical (heaven as eternal escape). 

The creational story of the Scriptures tells us that we are participants in the healing of the world in the here and now, that we will live on a new earth forever in new creation, and that God will redeem all things with us as participants and co-missioneers in the process (ruling and reigning). I.e. Christians should be extremely focused on the present world, fixing it, and loving/living within it as bearers of extraordinary love. That is the message I resonate with when I read the scriptures.

Redemptive stories that discount a brokenness in the human condition seem (in my estimation) bear a fundamental flaw. So do stories that say we are horrible, incomplete vessels that have no worth until we pray a prayer (enter some brands of Christianity).

I.e. The short answer is yes - and I believe the quest for truth never diminishes Jesus. In my estimation, it amplifies that resounding truth of this story (not always the Church&#039;s representation of it) to synthesize and illuminate the human experience.

I believe that all things &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; be explored - some of those things &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; be explored - we learn as much from that with which we disagree as from that with which we agree. However, I encourage the explorer to have a strong mentoring/conversational relationship with someone who has explored these things similarly and has retained a strong faith in God, and in particular, in Jesus and the Christian story.

We are poorer if we don&#039;t study these things, and richer if we come out the other end of what can be a painful process, able to speak to the deepest questions of the age.

I don&#039;t presume to be there yet, myself, but I am on the quest as a creative leader, teacher and thinker-in-the-night about these things.

In my personal search, every time I look in to the riches and flaws of the world&#039;s religious traditions, Jesus (his ways and representations of God) and his message (his transforming words and evocation of our call to be fully human) actually rise higher in my estimation. Not lower.

There is always risk in the search - I choose when and what I search well given my life at present. Having mentors, and tethers to a shared life in Christian community, are so vital in the process.

I, as an artist, come back to a wide range of songs of worship when my heart and mind is confused. They restore my soul, and I find my love for Jesus and the God of the scriptures rises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great question, Tim. I do believe that we can, though it takes strong hearts and minds to do so well without diluting the specificity of Jesus, and without being confused along the way (which can actually be, in my estimation, an important part of the growth process).</p>
<p>Creationalism tells us that truth is bubbling in broken image bearers everywhere, throughout time and throughout the stories of religion (and philosophy). Truth resides in culture, art and even socio-religious worldviews outside of Christianity.</p>
<p>However, an effective study of world religions shows us that there is good theology, and bad theology in the world. There are helpful ideas in religions, and harmful (especially when a seemingly innocuous idea is extrapolated to its logical conclusions en masse).</p>
<p>Often, I believe that there are riches, especially creationally, to be gleaned from the world cultures of the ages (primitive to today). I also believe there are many ideas that would make us poorer if we all followed them.</p>
<p>In the realm of redemptive stories, I believe much &#8220;separation of the good from the bad&#8221; begins to take place.</p>
<p>Does the &#8220;all things will be made new and we will participate in the restoring of new creation&#8221; view of the eschaton (age to come) ring more beautifully and soundly than &#8220;eventually we&#8217;ll all evolve to a place where we become smart enough, and peaceful enough, to manage this good earth?&#8221; It&#8217;s a good question. I think the gift of the new atheists (Dawkin&#8217;s, et al) is to suggest that the Christian view of heaven weakens our enthusiasm to fix things in the here and now.</p>
<p>How important it is to hear that. And then, how important it is to understand that our contemporary views of heaven, as Wright and others are helping us to see, are fundamentally unbiblical (heaven as eternal escape). </p>
<p>The creational story of the Scriptures tells us that we are participants in the healing of the world in the here and now, that we will live on a new earth forever in new creation, and that God will redeem all things with us as participants and co-missioneers in the process (ruling and reigning). I.e. Christians should be extremely focused on the present world, fixing it, and loving/living within it as bearers of extraordinary love. That is the message I resonate with when I read the scriptures.</p>
<p>Redemptive stories that discount a brokenness in the human condition seem (in my estimation) bear a fundamental flaw. So do stories that say we are horrible, incomplete vessels that have no worth until we pray a prayer (enter some brands of Christianity).</p>
<p>I.e. The short answer is yes &#8211; and I believe the quest for truth never diminishes Jesus. In my estimation, it amplifies that resounding truth of this story (not always the Church&#8217;s representation of it) to synthesize and illuminate the human experience.</p>
<p>I believe that all things <em>can</em> be explored &#8211; some of those things <em>should</em> be explored &#8211; we learn as much from that with which we disagree as from that with which we agree. However, I encourage the explorer to have a strong mentoring/conversational relationship with someone who has explored these things similarly and has retained a strong faith in God, and in particular, in Jesus and the Christian story.</p>
<p>We are poorer if we don&#8217;t study these things, and richer if we come out the other end of what can be a painful process, able to speak to the deepest questions of the age.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t presume to be there yet, myself, but I am on the quest as a creative leader, teacher and thinker-in-the-night about these things.</p>
<p>In my personal search, every time I look in to the riches and flaws of the world&#8217;s religious traditions, Jesus (his ways and representations of God) and his message (his transforming words and evocation of our call to be fully human) actually rise higher in my estimation. Not lower.</p>
<p>There is always risk in the search &#8211; I choose when and what I search well given my life at present. Having mentors, and tethers to a shared life in Christian community, are so vital in the process.</p>
<p>I, as an artist, come back to a wide range of songs of worship when my heart and mind is confused. They restore my soul, and I find my love for Jesus and the God of the scriptures rises.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Victor</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-376473</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-376473</guid>
		<description>Dan,

Nicely put. It&#039;s still a bit of a shame that Christianity is the late comer to the &quot;Green&quot; scene as well as the latecomer to recognising the common humanity, and hence much common truth, we share with all people - irrespective of their religion.

You also summarise the changing view on Jesus nicely.

Do you believe that we can proactively find truth in other religions while simultaneously and unashamedly and (hopefully) in power heralding Jesus and the kingdom/reign/dream of Godde?

It seems that many feel that doing so is what diminishes Jesus. Can you suggest ways in which this won&#039;t?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,</p>
<p>Nicely put. It&#8217;s still a bit of a shame that Christianity is the late comer to the &#8220;Green&#8221; scene as well as the latecomer to recognising the common humanity, and hence much common truth, we share with all people &#8211; irrespective of their religion.</p>
<p>You also summarise the changing view on Jesus nicely.</p>
<p>Do you believe that we can proactively find truth in other religions while simultaneously and unashamedly and (hopefully) in power heralding Jesus and the kingdom/reign/dream of Godde?</p>
<p>It seems that many feel that doing so is what diminishes Jesus. Can you suggest ways in which this won&#8217;t?</p>
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		<title>By: Stew West</title>
		<link>http://www.danwilt.com/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-376460</link>
		<dc:creator>Stew West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:48:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danwilt.com/index.php/creational-and-redemptive-stories/#comment-376460</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a great piece there... Dan! Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a great piece there&#8230; Dan! Thanks!</p>
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