I am unaffected by the idealistic hope that somehow true love will seep out of the “church” as we know it and start to leaven society and hope it will “rise” to the occassion of saving society – or even David.

We are pathetic, we Christians. AND THAT MEANS ME.

As I see sixty next year I am amazed that I want radical change, disruptive, experimenta change, change filled with errors and the determination to learn and try something else.

I have faith that I do NOT understand and want to find a way to make it useful and not anaemic.

I simply cannot see where Jesus would not rip us apart with choice words were he to see how content we are with inbred, self-serving, comforable pews that make us feel christian while society around us disintegrates slowly enough that we CAN avoid seeing it and well, gee gosh, I guess it is not the “season” just yet or God hasn’t “moved” just yet, so we ought to wait a generation and cast to hell the millions that will suffer and die while we wait for another movement. Cannot find anything Jesus said that would affirm this banal apathy.

can you ?

Don

So…when for chinese ??!!

Church as organization – you speak true words, and significant movements are actually at work in the world putting feet to the beliefs – you may need to get beyond the Church world you know.

Church as leaven, force, dispersed, hope-filled community and vibrant voice moving in and through culture sub-optimally but authentically? Church as mighty formative agent even in your and my present society?

Wake up and smell the holy coffee, Don.

Humans living lives laced with truth have had deep impact on your own life and world – impact you can’t always measure by a policy or a program. Say it’s got problems, sure, but say it only exists to serve itself and has no measureable impact and you’re as guilty as any other ideological pusher who can only see through his or her own value system.

Allow the possibility this is the way it is in the rest of the western world as well – the impact of the Church not always measurable but leaven in the loaf. Macro-math doesn’t always speak to the underground tipping points brewing under the surface. No bravado there – just truth – love givers have an impact in a hateful self-serving world. Even if they just show it at the paint store or to the friend in need.

Now, the Church re-engaging on all levels and rocking society? Point taken. The Church having suffered greatly in its impact through the past few thousand years (mainly due to some faulty non-biblical worldview)? Sure.

The Church sucking? I beg to differ, and the hospital you and I may need to go to tomorrow is proof. We get things done – just not always the right things, at the right times and for the right reasons.

This is spoken by a Church idealist with a healthy dose of realism given to him regularly over chinese food by someone with your name. I always believe that the Church carries hope; now, let’s learn how to deliver it in ways that feed the world and heal the addicted.

So, you’re right. And, you’re wrong. To say that life is the classroom and love is the lesson – is not only folk truth – it’s the mission of the Church, and its current activity – dysfunctional as that can be.

I for one am not ready to jump ship just yet.

(editor’s note: Don and I are great pals!)

What community in Canada or the US could persuade an objective, competent ousider that the resident churches have seriously and measureably improved their communities over the last 10, 20 or 30 years. Never heard of one. .. but I’d like to ! Instead i just see poverty stalled, drug addiction GROWING ( everywhere ) fewer at church of any sort, fewer believing in any way and the general decline. The church argues about abortion and stem cell research ( issues that long ago passed the point of any reversal people ! ) while the world declines around you. Are we really this totally incompetent ??

Could write a book ( well, no, not capable of that ) but maybe someone is more optimistic of the utterly incapacitated western Christian church to be relevant. Don

I still believe this, deep in my heart, no matter our historical/cultural encrustations or mouthy spiritual adolescence.

There is something about the message of Jesus… a seed… a way… an answer framed as even more beautiful questions… that can guide us forward.

Your concluding paragraph celebrates the value of love, retaining individuality (and uniqueness) and yet then pursuing the higher ethics you suggest with that “unique manifestation of the Spirit” given to each of us for the common good.

To embrace the gifts of this election’s social statement is necessary, and good. To consider the next 4 years, 10 years, 50 years or 300 years as the benchmark for good decisions in the now is shortsighted given our vantage point in history.

The way of Jesus promises something far more than the current changes can messianically offer – it promises that the world will be righted and that empowered love is a way of life that will engender goodness and wholeness – for millenia to come.

Was doing some late night blog cruising and stumbled on this post and ensuing discussion. I then went and listened to Jared Diamond, and because of your repeated return to Diamond and desire for a “thousand year perspective” on things (my take on the tenor of your ‘over-questions’) I thought I would add a comment.

In Diamond’s discussion of his collapsing-civilization-checklist, the most important one for us to pay attention to is the last one. This is his point about “are there social/political/cultural values or institutions that may inhibit the resolution of those other issues (environmental, intercultural, etc)?” He returns to this point later in his reply to those questions his students ask regarding the inability of cultures to perceive the doom imminent and implicit in their own actions. Diamond rightfully points out that it is often the case that the interests of the minority elite conflict with the interests of the group at large and this negates the potency that any awareness of a problem might have. It is a sad fact of the world that we can (as individuals or groups) realize that something we value is ultimately destructive, and desire to make changes but be unsuccessful because of forces beyond our control.

Currently there is an up-swelling in American culture regarding the negative environmental consequence of the “American way of life. (ie. big cars=green house gases=bad” ) According to Diamond’s analysis, however, even if this up-swelling became an outright flood and everyone was recycling and riding their bikes to work, it would not be enough to prevent a societal collapse if the controlling elite are more interested in themselves than in the good of society at large. So what we need is for something like the Fortune 500 CEO’s and the 1000 richest people in America to get on board (or something like that). The question that arises now, which is another of Diamond’s, is “are there any core values that are held by the elite, and have contributed to their success, but run counter to fixing the current situation?” Diamond refers to the Norse attachment to Catholicism that become a resource drain on their society, but it was something they couldn’t let go of because it had been a key factor in their social strength and development. (we might think this is a bad example but that’s beside the point) This last question is the one that needs to be brought to bear now, and especially in the light of Obama’s rubric of “change.”

When we hear Obama (or his affiliates or whatever) say he is going to bring change, we all have different ideas of what change is necessary, desirable, and possible. But there are some things that we all would consider to be beyond the pale, elements of society that would be inconceivable to let go of. In America there is no better example than the basic rights and freedoms of citizens: the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But what if one of these rights should prove, according to Diamond’s considerations, the key to our society’s undoing? And this is the question that needs to be asked, is Obama (or any other potential president) capable of looking at the state of affairs, realizing the lateness of the hour, and putting everything on the table to stave off destruction? ….

For anyone who might think that nothing could be sillier than imagining that the basic tenets of American identity could be at the root of societal failure, I would say that you are guilty of chronological arrogance. To think that because we are not the Mayans or the Norse means that we are not capable of blindly begetting our own destruction is to think that merely because we are further down some cosmic timeline means we have learned our historical lessons. The counter examples to this are numerous. Someone else might object that these basic American freedoms are so obviously good that they could not possibly be root causes of our disastrous conclusion. Well, I would say that other cultures may have thought the same thing about their key values. It is not enough to say that they are obviously good, what is necessary is to critically examine each one and see whether or not it needs to go or be modified. Again, to return to the Obama question, from the perspective of a thousand years, if Obama is unable to either do this deep criticism himself or enable someone else to, he might follow through on every single change he promised and still do nothing to stem the tide of societal collapse.

As a final comment I would say this, I did not use the example basic American rights as a potential cause of its societal collapse arbitrarily. The ethical philosopher Derek Parfit, a recognized leader in analytical ethics (the kind of ethics that painstakingly examines the logical implications of ethical positions), demonstrated the fact that the self interest model of ethics, that I should do what is in my own best interest to do, always fails as a principle for producing the best outcome for a group. If we do what is best for us, be that try to make our self as happy as possible or free from pain, or whatever, it will be worse off for us compared to if we took the interests of the group first. In the case of America, the idea is that everyone has the freedom and responsibility to make sure that they get everything they need and want for themselves . You have the right to pursue your own happiness and you have the right to do this on your own (liberty!). I believe that the basic, basic, fundamental notion of “I am ultimately responsible for me and mine” is the kind of hidden societal fatal flaw that Diamond sees in other cultures and is looking for in America and is at the root of so much dis-ease in our culture and the church.

Can Obama stem this tide? Can anyone? From a thousand-year perspective we might doubt it, but I also believe that the church bears within itself true gifts to the world and that as much as we work at making them available anything is possible. What are these gifts? Only the most brilliant and insightful thoughts on how to live, taught and demonstrated in the life of Jesus. The more that Christians work at knowing and being like Jesus, the more we will transform the root ideas of our culture that lead to catastrophic ends and the less we will be transformed by our culture and share in those ends.

Matt

I think I would feel the same way if McCain had won, overall I think the federal govt is just too big and trying to be the savior and bring justice to the world. It’s cool having a inspirational guy steering the ship, but it’s still the Church and not the federal government that is the hope of the world. Not many government officials come from that point of view.

Doesn’t that set a litte bit of a tone for just what might be to come?

Sorry, but I just cannot find myself caught up in the jubilant crowd that is so expectant that the changes he wishes to make will be for our betterment.

But it of course, doesn’t stop the “Your Kingdom come” prayers, does it?
There’s so much more that can be said….
Rich