Interesting. I haven’t read the book, but it sounds interesting.
Here’s the issue though. Christianity is meant to be culturally flexible and embodied in thousands of cultural ways. This is the very human beauty of Christ’s mission and teaching - and it’s power as the central human story.
As long as the book does not disembody Christianity from historical process and culture, all is well. If it demonizes the fact that human beings change along the way, experiment, entrench, and need course correction, then I can’t go with it.
God is not afraid of our history, our minglings with culture, nor our struggles to free ourselves from historical sins. He is present in the process.
i.e. Beauty can be found in “pagan” roots - because they are cultural roots. Pagan means “country dweller” - the people on the outside fringes of the empire.
There is a baptism for broken beauty in culture, and it can be reclaimed by this redemptive faith.
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It does look interesting and the majority of amazon reviews are good. I think that questioning why we do things is important, but more in our local context in order to effective. Change for a good reason is good but change for change is not. I worry that in the western church we spend so much time deconstructing, recreating, emerging, discussing, and writing books about it, that we don’t have the time or energy just to get on with what we’re called to do. (just the bee in my bonnet at the moment)
I’ll refrain from saying anything about the book, which I have not read and likely will not bother with. All I know is that this type of approach makes me uncomfortable.
I much prefer the approach that says “how can we best be faithful within our cultural context” rather than the one that declares “everything unbiblical must go!”
The former includes biblical reflection, while realizing that that is only part of the task. The latter has the benefit of being simpler, but overly simple. It overlooks the fact that the church is far from the sole container of God…
ok … so this type of book gets right up my craw! you have got to be kidding me. some other human being, who just happens to live in this century, actually knows the infallible ‘truth’ about paganism? gee … are these the same types of people who take aboriginal ‘pagan’ children out of their communities and place them into white anglo-saxon reform schools? have they ever read ‘peace child’ or ‘lords of the earth’ … or … oh … honestly … i just can’t even go on. humph … i’d rather take an apple peeler to my eyeball than read a book like that. anyhow … just in case anyone was wondering what i thought?
I have similar thoughts on the book (based on blog posts and quotes from it, and other writings by Frank Viola)… Viola seems to romanticize the early church too much, as if there was some kind of “golden age” of Christianity, after which we’ve not gotten it “right” for 2000 years!
So I appreciate your thoughts… “God is not afraid of our history” - I really like that. Thanks much.
Guys, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion in writing off the book - it was not my intent to precipitate it by writing on what I myself do not know.
I actually think it’s possible (I don’t know; I haven’t read the book) that Barna and Viola are NOT aiming at recovering some pristine pollyanna New Testament Christianity, but rather are trying to serve the emerging Church movement by creating a book that shows the common evangelical that the church paradigm they hold so dearly actually has more cultural roots than biblical ones.
I.e. The message might be “Lighten up and let new forms of cultural Church expression emerge - don’t choke them out by standing on an errant biblical view of the ideal “church form.”
We all write to an audience we seek to influence - it could be that writing to this audience in this regard is the best service the guys could do for the Church of today.
Then again, I haven’t got a clue - I haven’t read a page of it! I may be being far too gracious, and I’m not familiar with Viola.
I.e. Here’s what they say, and read this review through the lens I suggest above. Not all that is church practice or is historically entrenched is helpful:
Sorting Out Truth From Tradition
Many Christians take for granted that their church’s practices are rooted in Scripture. Yet those practices look very different from those of the first-century church. The New Testament is not silent on how the early church freely expressed the reality of Christ’s indwelling in ways that rocked the first-century world.
Times have changed. Pagan Christianity leads us on a fascinating tour through church history, revealing this startling and unsettling truth: Many cherished church traditions embraced today originated not out of the New Testament, but out of pagan practices. One of the most troubling outcomes has been the effect on average believers: turning them from living expressions of Christ’s glory and power to passive observers. If you want to see that trend reversed, turn to Pagan Christianity . . . a book that examines and challenges every aspect of our contemporary church experience.
Are We Really Doing Church “By the Book?”
Why does the pastor preach a sermon at every service? Why do our church services seem so similar week after week? Why does the congregation sit passively in pews?
Not sure? Pagan Christianity makes an unsettling proposal: Most of what present-day Christians do in church each Sunday is rooted not in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Authors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence and extensive footnotes that document the origins of our modern Christian church practices.
In the process, the authors uncover the problems that emerge when the church functions like a business organization rather than the living organism it was created to be. As you reconsider Christ’s revolutionary plan for His church-to be the head of a fully functioning body in which all believers play an active role-you’ll be challenged to decide whether you can ever do church the same way again.
They may be doing a great service.
Administrator, as someone who has read the book, you are right. You may find this site helpful as Frank is fielding questions about the book - http://www.ptmin.org/answers.htm
There are many book reviews on this page also.
Hmm, I didn’t do so good at refraining, did I?
There’s been a whirlwind of reviews out there which undoubtedly influenced my non-refraining.
Bob Hyatt, Robbymac, and Br. Maynard to name a few…
I have not read any of those completely, but the gist is that Viola’s tone obscures the content…
Hmm, the Bob Hyatt link was wonky, apparently…
Thanks for pointing us that direction, though, Matt. Our class on worship history today begged these questions of how Christian practice emerges within a zeitgeist, and finds itself both more beautiful and more bewildered in the process.
I’m just thrilled that after 2000 years the Church is asking these kinds of questions, and has the cultural space in which to ask them.
What a privilege to be in an age where millenia are behind us to think upon. What a challenge to think well about these things, and to do the right things for the right reasons.
What a privilege to live in free lands where thinking can occur about such pivotal questions without fear of recrimination.
two cents..
i read the self-published edition of this book a while ago.. (as oppossed to the new Tyndale edition w/ barna..
although i resonate with some of violas challenges with modern church practice, i have to say i found myself reacting negatively to the prevailing dogmatic treatment thru out…cover to cover…likely w/tyndale and barna on board, this edition will be softened a bit…hopefully so you wont feel complicit w/ the pagan agenda of the underworld if you just happen to attend your “church” this sunday..
apple peeler … book … apple peeler … book … ha, ha, ha …
Hi, an excellent alternative to Viola’s book is “The Ancient Church As Family” by Dr. Joe Hellerman. His work is well researched and addresses many of the “pagan” influences on our faith. Dr. Hellerman’s contribution is a blend of good history AND respectful discourse.
Joe,
Looks like an excellent piece of work. Thanks for directing us to it. It’s now on my wish list at Amazon.
the title ‘pagan’ is slightly misleading. I think no one should make comments about something they have not read. A lot of these comments are pre-judging without actually having read the book. This is astounding. Read it first and then comment!!
u are welcome. FYI, Joe also has some new resources coming out this year so keep an eye out for more great stuff on the way.
Interesting perspective considering your background. I will have to read more of your stuff. Meantime, if you are interested, I am posting a 5 part interview with both George Barna and Frank Viola. Please feel free to pass the word and share your thoughts.
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